Sun:

Correct. I was born in Thailand. I moved to Norway when I was three.

S:

First of all, I would say it’s a little bit boring in Norway.

Norway has 5 million people. Just Bangkok itself is 7 to 10 million people.

It’s a lot. It can be very overwhelming. I love it actually, growing up in Norway, and I didn’t grow up in Oslo, I grew up in the countryside. Oh my god, it’s so quiet. It’s probably like less than 20,000 people where I was growing up, but Bangkok is very exciting to me. I moved to Thailand in 2012 then you really learn as a gay man what life’s about.

The thing with Bangkok is that there’s so much queer community present, plus all the gay people traveling to Bangkok that I think for hundreds of years historically it’s been quite normalized.

Thailand recognizes over 20 genders. I don’t know what they all, are but it’s very interesting.

Going to Bangkok, you would notice that the visibility of trans women is amazing. It’s still not equal, for instance, I’ve never seen a trans woman work as a flight attendant. But you see them working in the shopping mall, pharmacies, restaurants, service industry.

And also the gay district is quite huge. We have this kind of like a small mall. It’s open 24-7. It’s beside a gay club. I bought a straight friend there before from Indonesia, he’s very open-minded, he was so gagged, he was like “90% are gay men coming here!”

I think the difference is really, that Norway may have the equality but I feel there’s much more homophobia and transphobia in Norway.

S:

More than in Thailand. The thing that Norwegians are good with is keeping it inside. But I can feel it, and I heard of some situations.

In Thailand it’s better, there are bullies in schools of course, but I feel adults are quite respectful and tolerant to each other. In Thailand everyone has at least one trans person in their life. It’s pretty normal.

S:

Yes, I mean from my own experience and perception, I would say because Buddhism is the majority religion or practice. And I think Thai people really are taught and learn to really focus on kindness and compassion and good practices, being a good person.  Thai people are really afraid of having bad karma because it’s gonna fuck up your life. So in a way I think that also has contributed to that.

Being trans is not wrong, it’s a part of nature. To respect that and judge how they are as a person, not their gender identity or how they express themselves. In Buddhism and just in general Thai people believe in karma: you do that, you get that, you do good, you get good.

S:

I will be honest – at first I didn’t really think too much about it yet if it was necessary or not. I started abroad to learn and walk balls and then came back to share my knowledge in Thailand, where there was no scene yet. I threw the first kiki ball and to be honest, it was more as an interest for the kids, the youth.

But now I’ve been thinking a lot about it after that and thinking of whether it’s necessary or not. In a way I feel there are already a few safe places in Thailand. But ballroom is necessary because it is a safer space for a lot of people, especially trans women.

But in Thailand, like I just shared to you, trans women are kind of safe, and quite tolerated in Thailand. It’s really individual, that’s for sure, but for some it will be very safe.

S:

I think the biggest contrast is that for most black trans women in the U.S., you don’t know whether the next day you are alive or not. I think that’s a real concern for a lot of the black trans community in the U.S.

But in a country like Thailand, trans women can go around and not really be afraid of that.

A more functional difference, I would say balls in Asia will start more on time.

And of course the scene in New York has a lot of trans women, it’s really a space for them, because first it was created by a trans woman for trans women so it’s still very made by them for them. Of course nowadays it’s also a lot of gays, the butch queens. But the dolls, the femme queens, there’s a lot of them in the U.S. . In Thailand even though the visibility of trans women is very high, we don’t have many in Thailand’s ballroom scene.

S:

In the beginning, it was the gays and actually the cisgender girls. A lot of the cis girls know me through dancing and then they saw that I started voguing and they wanted to come and contribute to this scene too because it just started and we were not that many and we are of course open to allies.

But at some point you also need to adjust and also understand that, hey, okay, I think together we need to do a better job. It looks weird that it’s going to be more straight girls in the scene and then we don’t have any trans girls.

S:

I think somehow also naturally the cis girls just left the ballroom scene.

Now we have a Thailand ballroom leader, she’s a trans girl and she’s doing it pretty well and she has her trans daughters who she brought into the scene.

Because of her, there are more femme queens, trans girls in the scene. Because I don’t do the Thailand scene anymore actually. I only did it in the beginning until maybe like two, three years ago. Sometimes there is drama happening and stuff, so I left the local scene and I focused more on Southeast Asia.

S:

Correct, yes, especially in Indonesia after what happened recently this year where there were straight people attacking trans girls. There were people filming boys running after trans girls. It’s really bad and because I think their government has been showing support of anti-trans and anti-gay which has for sure contributed to the people not respecting LGBTQ.

But thankfully there’s still Bali. The majority there is Hindu, a lot of Indonesian LGBTQ actually either move to Bali or Jakarta. Jakarta has become more open minded, certain places. But Indonesia is so big, there’s a lot of people and definitely a lot LGBTQs are still like hiding.

S:

From Norway I came from like a more contemporary dance background, but when I moved to Thailand I found happiness in the hip-hop scene in the street scene.

So I started to learn that. I was with a lot of street dancers and it was one week, there was a lot cheap classes, different street dances. One of the classes was vogueing and I never heard of that. It was done by a very famous Thai singer, she’s really good friends with a lots of street dancers. She had been to a workshop in LA, actually it was a workshop by Javier Ninja, icon Javier Ninja, and so she just wanted to share with us because no one was voguing in Thailand. It was 2013.

After the class she was teaching elements like duck walk and cat walk and the dip and I thought that was really cool. I felt very happy and excited to try these moves.

So I went home on YouTube, did more research, and that’s when I discovered some of the icons from New York, like Icon Naomi, Icon Da Sean.

Because of that class I really got more into voguing first and then I knew about the culture later. It was really like “oh my god i want to do all these moves including these dips!“.

I was saving money just to travel to Taiwan to learn more vogueing. And that’s also where I walked my first ball, it was in December 2015, “Kick ass ball five”.

S:

Ooh, the essence.

We have three different styles right and so of course each style has their own essence but I think for me it’s really this idea of carrying experiences, that come from your ancestors in ballroom, like your parents, Ballroom parents, the icons, the legends that lived before us. That’s a part of the essence too.

Voguing is a practice of, like any other practices, especially traditional practices, traditional Asian dances, classical Asian dances. What is passed hundreds of years through the masters, the gurus.

So I would say it’s the same in ballroom, that it’s passed down through your parents, the icons, the legends in the ballroom scene and I think that’s really a lot of the essence for me in the three different voguing styles. It’s about if you understand what they went through. Because of the political issues that happened in New York back then, do you get how they managed? They brought that to the floor, to the balls, to do the voguing.

Especially Vogue Femme, you know, is feeling like a woman, it is feeling feminine, its feeling pussy and cunt, and that’s also a very essence of Vogue Femme.

And of course, there’s diversity of that kind of sense and feelings, and that’s why I said, that’s when it’s also even more important to understand the language of the icons and legends and our parents who come from this very marginalized community in USA. Do you understand where your place is in ballroom?

So that’s why I would say for me vogueing, of course a lot of the movements are very physically, not just challenging, but it demands a lot from your body as well. Even though you’re a strong ass bitch, you might not have the essence. Then it’s not gonna work on the runway. They’re gonna see right through you and be like, sorry, like you’re just mocking this culture.

S:

Correct.

S:

It still exists. In the Kiki scene, I founded a Kiki house, Kiki House of Sun. It was the first Kiki house in Thailand, but it also got spread to Vietnam, Singapore, Indonesia, the Philippines, and we have one member in Nuremberg.

Kiki House of Sun still exists, not in Thailand anymore but around Southeast Asia and then we have a chapter in Seattle, also in USA now.

S:

I started in the Kiki scene later, and I also didn’t know about the Kiki scene until then. When I started the scene in Thailand is when I learned more about it.

I wanted to create a Kiki house for the local kids who didn’t have the opportunity to travel. Sometimes it is hard to join a mainstream house if you cannot travel.

But it was really just to have it for the kids locally who don’t have the same opportunities like I do,  I can join a house just because I can go abroad.

Also I did not want to scare them away because ballroom can be quite rough sometimes, and also having a Kiki house helps you to mentor them and give them a lot of advice.

Some of the kids, they don’t want to walk ball, they just need a gay father, they just need a gay role model because at home they won’t talk about gay things or queer things to their parents.

S:

My Thai mom, she’s very open-minded, so she was just curious what is this, and she was supportive.

But I also used to live in a foster home in Norway. When I came out to my foster mom, she was crying. She was like, she just worried about a lot of things. That was different. 

I think she was just curious, asking me, “Why are you wearing all these heels, you’re not trans, right?“ She’s not a bad person, it was just all new to her because also she comes from the more countryside in Norway. But other than that, actually, they’re quite supportive. I would say my Thai mom is the one most supportive, again, I guess because of Thai culture. She already grew up with queer people, LGBTQ people around her since young age. So it wasn’t new to her.

When I came out to her, she was like “Yeah, I mean. I mean!“

S:

No, never. Actually, I have a twin, and he’s a straight dude. And when we were 6, she dressed me up as a girl, and then him as the boy, and she was taking photos of us. It’s in the documentary actually. So obviously she kind of knew.

And she said, like, when me and my twin, we both were very little, she said like, you were different. You were not like a boy.

S:

I never expected there would be such a movie and the fact that I was blessed enough to be one of the protagonists as well. I have to say, it’s been really special.

After studying contemporary dance in Norway, my idea was always just, I’m going to dance in performances, on the stage, like box theaters, whatever. But then I did more things after I moved to Thailand.

Just the fact that I could be a trailblazer of a ballroom scene having my own ballroom kids and all that! And now on top of that there is also this film that archives how the ballroom has started in Thailand and Southeast Asia.

Some people have been commenting, calling it the Asian “Paris is burning”.  I feel like we’re still in  the beginning but it’s all very special and exciting. 

S:

Well, I definitely hope they will be free in some countries like Indonesia and Malaysia as well. I don’t have kids there but countries like these two, where there is a majority Muslim society, that it will be safer for them, especially the dolls.

It doesn’t really look hopeful, but it’s just something we have to go through together and wish for the best and hopefully that the allies in those countries really come together to support.

So yeah, generally I hope for ballroom to become a safer space. That they will be more accessible to the youth as well. Of course less drama – if it’s possible. Sometimes they say like “it’s just ballroom” but that, you know, it really must be built on compassion and kindness because i feel that’s really what a lot of the kids still need, someone who supports them.

And of course hopefully also more sponsors and donations. I keep seeing balls without any budget, they lose a lot of money to organizers. I’ve always been dreaming of NGOs supporting the balls, that’s what I hope for. 

Because that’s what they do in the US, I heard, especially Kiki Balls, they get funding among grants from certain systems. That’s why you also will see a lot of Kiki balls in schools and stuff.

I just hope it can be another safer space for a lot of LGBTQ community members and that we keep going on about spreading the awareness about sexual education, PrEP, HIV, hormone treatments for the trans girls. Just taking care of each other. 

Leon Emanuel Blanck: Perfectionism is not something that gets me anywhere. It also has to do with the technique I have developed. I see the whole process as a kind of Sisyphean task. You work on one side, or on both sides in parallel, and then the piece is finished, so to speak. You put it on again and think, “Okay, this side is a little tighter than the other,” or something doesn’t quite work. Then you work on the other side again, and suddenly that side is different. You could continue forever. At some point, you have to stop, otherwise it will never be finished. In my idea of things, perfection simply isn’t attainable.

LEB: Earlier, actually. I see the entire design and shaping process as a conversation between the body I am shaping, the person, the material and my own input. It’s like a conversation, so to speak. I don’t actually design that much; things happen almost automatically through the movement and the person. Ultimately, the seam lines and the shapes are determined by the natural characteristics of the body. In that sense, it is already something very natural and alive. Then there is another step when someone buys it and wears it, and their character and the character of the garment connect with each other.

LEB: Everything I touch turns to gold. It’s quite scary. I’m actually always inspired. I don’t really have moments where I think, “I have no idea what to do.” I also don’t see it as, “Now I’m designing something,” or “Now I’m thinking about this.” The day is just the day, you do what you do, and maybe an idea comes to you. Sometimes you just have to start working on something, and then it comes naturally.

LEB: Emotions more than things I see. But I don’t think you can design something while living in a completely white room, isolated from everything. What you surround yourself with, in the broadest sense, will always come back out through you. But it’s not something I actively do. I don’t look at something and think, “I’m going to make this now.” It’s more about how you carry yourself. But emotions definitely play a role.

There is a collection for Leon Emanuel Blanck called Human. It was the winter collection that has now come into stores. During the design phase, it was originally very much connected to a feeling I had. I was quite angry for a while about various things, which isn’t necessarily unusual for me—that is part of my character. I eventually realized that this was coming through in the collection, and it developed from there.

LEB: To feel themselves, and also to feel the difference between left and right—not necessarily the left and right sides, but generally. The nice thing about clothes, or at least what I like about my clothes, is that you always feel something when you wear them. It’s not that classic feeling of, “Wow, this is so light,” or “I don’t feel anything at all.” It’s more that something is happening.

LEB: Another form of design, if I’m being precise. It actually started with taking classics and putting my DNA onto them—whether it’s a trench coat, a five-pocket jean or a trucker jacket. These are all classic pieces that still work when I put my stamp on them. It works without a logo. I put the cut into the foreground, which is kind of a logo in itself, but not actually one.

That’s what I find interesting. If you’re not paying close attention, you simply have a trench coat. But if you have an eye for things, you might think, “Interesting. Why is it made this way? Why is the seam positioned like that? Why are the left and right sides different?” It’s not very loud.

LEB: Clothing is clothing, and artworks are artworks. That’s what’s beautiful about sculptures, for example. They don’t have to fit anyone. Something can be too tight for me, too wide, or simply not suit me. It doesn’t have to.

LEB:  It was really funny because I didn’t actually realize how special or great it was until much later, looking back. It wasn’t gone, obviously, but I only really appreciated it afterwards. I thought, “Fuck, that’s amazing.” 

In general, I’m not very easily impressed or in awe of other people. Of course, it’s great when people create something amazing, but there are so many people creating incredible things. I’ve never really had that kind of fandom—even as a child, it was never really my thing.

Judith Haase: We come from different cultures – Pierre is French, I’m German – and different education. That’s our way of working: bringing disciplines together into a shared language that’s always about space, and space is about light. No one discipline is more important than the other; the thinking is more global. We work more like showrunners, moving from the room to the object, from the object to the space, from the space to the light.

Pierre Jorge Gonzalez: For us it’s mainly about art in a broader sense. When someone says “I’m an artist,” people ask if they’re a painter or a sculptor, but that doesn’t really make sense anymore. Being an artist is more a way of thinking, rather than what ends up shown in a gallery or art space.

JH: It came from people approaching us in Milan. Maximilian Huber had taken over his father’s company in Bavaria – producing mostly kitchens and bathrooms – and there were many leftover pieces of marble. He started collaborating with Dominic Kim, who comes from the design side, and together they founded Marbledworks to use up those offcuts. They asked us to collaborate and design pieces for them. We have no real favorites in terms of materials; what matters to us is that it ages well. So we took the challenge.

PJG: Marble is not something we’d worked with much – it’s expensive and shaping it takes a lot of work. Our approach is also about sustainability, so we try not to use materials that demand too many resources. We prefer techniques that are easier to process, which are also economically more viable. But of course, this was some sort of evolution.

JH: We never work with trends. Mies van der Rohe used marble the same way when he created the Barcelona Pavilion with Lilly Reich in 1929 as a material that gives color to the space itself. For an architect, it’s fundamental.

PJG: It has always been the classic thing.

JH: We’re always producing, and when a new challenge comes along, we like to take it. This was one too: working with rests that would otherwise be thrown away, to design new pieces out of them. One of the first was the Garden Bonkers. “Bonkers” means crazy: little pieces made from offcuts, on which you can put a flower pot and let the water drain down. For the triangular Hot pieces, sometimes we used one full piece and removed material to get the shape; other times we joined three colors with a specific detail.

PJG: Our approach was to use small pieces of marble. The first object was The Brick – with that one you almost can’t choose a color, because it only comes from what’s left. When an architect does a flooring or a full bathroom in marble, there’s always some rest they can’t reuse, maybe two square meters nobody needs. That was the idea behind these objects.

PJG: Designers and architects rarely say anything interesting about color – it’s always about the emotion of the moment, always trend-driven, always the same safe classics: black, white, maybe a few more. That’s why we wrote Catastrophe Colours, to reverse that emotional approach. For instance, with The Brick, the idea is that you almost can’t choose: it will be stone, and it will come with a color already defined. Not choosing becomes part of the design, a different way of thinking.

JH: [For The Brick] the thickness is twice the 2-centimeter plate, glued together so each side is a different color, entirely determined by what’s left over. With the Sporadic Table we’re freer: we’ve made it in several colours and you can mix them. It’s three plates that assemble by hand through a plug-in joint, so with two tables you can combine colors however you like

JH: I love moving objects around, creating different configurations with the same piece, changing the space I’m in. That comes from being a scenographer, from stage design, and wanting to create a completely different situation. With marble it depends on scale: you can’t move a big table by yourself, so we kept the objects relatively small. The Sporadic Table is a good example: it’s called sporadic because you can put it down anywhere – on a carpet for tea, in the kitchen as a cutting board, in the bathroom for your perfumes. You take it apart yourself – it’s three pieces – and put it back together wherever you need it.

PJG: Important buildings were once built with stone – not necessarily marble, just stone – through demanding, expensive labor. Then the brick came along: not invented by the Romans, but perfected by them, to the point of an almost industrialized construction. Our idea was to reverse that logic: to make a brick, but out of stone. It’s a kind of reversal of what beauty can be, and the brick becomes contradictory in an interesting way: multiplication and industrialization applied to a material that resists both. That’s the point of friction we find compelling.

JH: We made the Isosceles Table in three different heights: a low coffee table, a kitchen-height table, and a bedside table, each also in three different sizes. You can combine them however you need: a small apartment calls for a smaller size, a huge living room could take a big coffee table, a large dining room could combine several triangles into one big surface. It’s playful. When we talk about Spatial Objects, we think of them almost as architecture: you can scale them, choose the colors and sizes you need, and a single object becomes a spatial object by combining it with others. We’ve grouped the Hot pieces into one continuous surface, and we did the same with The Brick, arranging them to create a kind of sculpture in the space.

JH: No, it’s not symbolic – it comes from the fact that you can assemble it. With the Baton Wardrobe, for instance, a second piece can sit along one side of the triangular base without using extra space. It’s the same idea behind the Lola light: a single cable lets you attach a second triangle, a third, up to five or six, each controlled individually from your phone, building up images on the wall depending on the size of the space.

PJG: The triangle is something we’ve worked with for many years, also as a way to direct lighting. It’s the fragment, maybe the smallest unit you can create in space, and these triangles start from something small and multiply, like with the Baton Wardrobe, as Judith said. It’s an important touch point across all our elements.

JH: It’s made of three different materials, three different pieces, and you can move them – that’s the starting point: there are no nice wardrobes out there, so we designed one. The baton itself is oak, tinted black, and you can position it differently along the profile – for an umbrella, a short jacket, a long jacket – which is why there are holes at different heights. The heavy marble base holds it in place as a counterweight, and that’s also where the triangular form comes in: for a dinner, you might need three at the entrance to give guests more space. You can add one, two, three, create a long line for an event, or keep just one at home. It’s flexible and functional, but also beautiful: the steel profile is highly polished, so you can mirror yourself in it and put your lipstick on before you go out. Even without a jacket on it, it’s a lovely object on its own, and we’re happy to be showing it for the first time.

JH: Kris from OUVERTURE has a new gallery space, and she asked if we’d like to do something there. It felt like the right opportunity to show our collaboration with Marbledworks in full, for the first time – all the objects we’ve designed for them so far, which hadn’t really been visible until now. This is us finally saying, this is our collaboration with Marbledworks, this is what we’ve created.