LYNN HERSHMAN LEESON: WHEN YOU GROW UP WITH SUCH EXCLUSION – WHEN THE ONLY WAY YOU COULD SHOW IN A GALLERY WAS BY BEING MARRIED TO A MAN WHO WAS SHOWING THERE – IT BECOMES SO NORMALIZED THAT PEOPLE DON’T EVEN SEE IT AS EXCLUSION. THEY SIMPLY ASSUME WOMEN DID NOT MAKE ART. SO, WHEN OPPORTUNITIES
FOR CONNECTIVITY, CONVERSATION, AND GENUINE EXCHANGE APPEAR, IT WAS AND IS INCREDIBLY EXCITING. AS A FEMALE ARTIST FORTY YEARS AGO, I HAD NO COLLEAGUES, NO COMMUNITY, NO ONE TO DISCUSS ISSUES WITH OR EVEN TO DEBATE. REALIZING THERE COULD BE MORE POSSIBILITIES WAS A COMPLETE SHIFT IN PERSPECTIVE. NOW THERE’S MORE FREEDOM, MORE PROGRAMS, BIGGER AUDIENCES, AND FAR GREATER OPPORTUNITIES FOR COMMUNICATION. THE ISOLATION IS LESS PREVALENT THAN BEFORE. COLLABORATING WITH ALL KINDS OF PEOPLE – ESPECIALLY YOUNGER GENERATIONS – BRINGS NEW ENERGY. WHEN YOU GET OLDER, YOU REALIZE YOU DON’T KNOW EVERYTHING. YOU NEED YOUNGER PEOPLE IN YOUR LIFE TO LEARN FROM, AND HAT’S WHERE THE VITALITY IS.

LHL: PEOPLE TODAY DON’T ALWAYS REALIZE HOW DIFFERENT IT WAS. YES, PREJUDICE AND DISCRIMINATION STILL EXIST, BUT IT’S NOT COMPARABLE TO 40 YEARS AGO, WHEN WOMEN HAD ALMOST NO VOICE. THERE WERE ZERO FEMALE CURATORS OR MUSEUM DIRECTORS. I REMEMBER THE FIRST FEMALE MUSEUM DIRECTOR IN SAN FRANCISCO, SUZANNE FOLEY. BACK THEN, YOU WERE COMPLETELY ISOLATED,
AND NOBODY TOOK YOU SERIOUSLY. IT’S VERY DIFFERENT NOW BECAUSE AT LEAST THERE’S A CHANCE. SUCCESSFUL WOMEN ARTISTS, CURATORS, AND MUSEUM DIRECTORS HAVE PAID THE PRICE AND PAVED THE WAY FOR OTHERS TO HAVE MORE OPPORTUNITIES.
AS TIME GOES ON, EQUALITY IS BEING INSISTED UPON MORE AND MORE.

LHL: I WAS THINKING ABOUT DANIEL SPOERRI. THERE WAS A DINNER FOR HIM WHERE HE FLIPPED THE TABLE UPSIDE DOWN AND THREW ALL THE FOOD AGAINST THE WALL, AND EVERYONE THOUGHT IT WAS HILARIOUS. THEY WERE TALKING ABOUT IT LIKE IT WAS GREAT. IF I TRIED TO DO SOMETHING LIKE THAT, I’D BE BANISHED FROM THE CITY, MAYBE EVEN THE COUNTRY. BUT BACK THEN, PEOPLE ACCEPTED THAT KIND OF BEHAVIOR AS JUST BEING AN ARTIST OR BEING INTERESTING BECAUSE THEY WERE THE RIGHT DEMOGRAPHIC. AT THE SAME TIME, THERE WAS ALWAYS PREJUDICE ABOUT WHAT WOMEN WERE ALLOWED TO DO AND HOW THEY HAD TO BEHAVE JUST TO BE INVITED INTO PUBLIC SPACES. SOMETIMES, PEOPLE DON’T EVEN NOTICE WHEN WOMEN ARE BEING EXCLUDED OR OVERLOOKED. IT’S BETTER NOW BECAUSE THERE ARE QUOTAS THAT PEOPLE HAVE TO MEET, BUT IT’S STILL NOWHERE NEAR WHERE IT SHOULD BE.

LHL: I WENT THROUGH A LOT OF DEPRESSION AND STRUGGLED TO UNDERSTAND WHAT I COULD DO IN THE WORLD, ESPECIALLY GIVEN ALL THE DISCRIMINATION. EVENTUALLY, I REALIZED THAT I COULD DO SOMETHING NO ONE ELSE COULD – THAT IF I CREATED MY ART, REGARDLESS OF WHETHER ANYONE EVER SAW IT, IT WOULD BE SOMETHING UNIQUE TO ME. THAT’S WHAT KEPT ME GOING. I’VE ALWAYS EQUATED BEING AN ARTIST WITH BEING ALIVE BECAUSE I’M NOT SURE I WOULD HAVE SURVIVED WITHOUT THAT UNDERSTANDING OF WHAT I COULD DO AND CONTRIBUTE TO THE WORLD, WHETHER OR NOT IT WAS RECOGNIZED DURING MY LIFETIME.

LHL: I DIDN’T EXPECT IT TO HAPPEN. I WAS AMAZED WHEN THE OPPORTUNITIES FINALLY CAME, AND THE BIG BREAKTHROUGH WAS WITH PETER WEIBEL AT ZKM KARLSRUHE. THAT WAS THE FIRST TIME THAT WORK WAS SHOWN, AND SOME OF IT WAS OVER 50 YEARS OLD. I WAS IN MY 70S, AND SOME OF THE WORKS HAD NEVER BEEN SEEN BEFORE. AGAIN, IT WAS KIND OF A MIRACLE THAT IT HAPPENED, AND IT ONLY HAPPENED BECAUSE I KNEW VALIE EXPORT WHO WAS ANOTHER WOMAN ARTIST. SHE HAD COME TO SAN FRANCISCO AND NEEDED A PLACE TO STAY. AT THAT TIME, PETER WAS VALIE EXPORT’S BOYFRIEND, AND THAT’S HOW I MET HIM. SO, GOING FROM NEVER EXPECTING TO HAVE ANY EXHIBITIONS OR BOOKS IN MY LIFETIME TO HAVING THAT SHOW MADE A DIFFERENCE. IT ALSO MADE A DIFFERENCE FOR OTHERS BECAUSE IT WAS WRITTEN ABOUT, PEOPLE NOTICED IT, AND WORK THAT OTHERS HAD BEEN CREDITED WITH – WORK I HAD DONE 10 YEARS EARLIER – WAS FINALLY RECOGNIZED. I STARTED TO GET SOME REAL REVIEWS, WHICH I HADN’T RECEIVED BEFORE UNLESS I WROTE THEM MYSELF. THEN, SLOWLY, PEOPLE BEGAN TO INVITE ME TO PARTICIPATE IN THINGS. THAT WAS REALLY THE BEGINNING. I DON’T THINK ANY OF THIS WOULD
HAVE HAPPENED WITHOUT THAT SHOW. HISTORY STARTED TO CATCH UP, AND IT HAPPENED DURING MY LIFETIME.

LHL: THEIR NAMES WERE PRUDENCE JURIS, GAY ABANDON, AND HERBERT GOOD. YOU CAN’T PLAY INTO EXISTING PREJUDICES; YOU HAVE TO BE CLEVER ABOUT HOW YOU
APPROACH IT SO THAT YOUR WORK IS NOT JUST ACCEPTED BUT ALSO MAKES A DIFFERENCE. BUT I ALSO THINK YOU HAVE TO STAND YOUR GROUND – YOU CAN’T BE SUPPRESSED. YOU HAVE TO FIND A WAY TO GET AROUND THOSE BARRIERS. WRITING A REVIEW ISN’T THAT MUCH WORK, ESPECIALLY WHEN IT’S ABOUT MY OWN WORK. WHEN I WROTE BIG ARTICLES FOR STUDIO INTERNATIONAL THAT REQUIRED MORE RESEARCH,
IT WAS A DIFFERENT PROCESS; WRITING FOR DAILY, THROWAWAY NEWSPAPERS WAS JUST JOTTING DOWN MY IMPRESSIONS. ACTUALLY, IT WAS FUN, AND IT EVENTUALLY BECAME MY MASTER’S THESIS. I DIDN’T START IT AS A THESIS, BUT I LATER DECIDED TO USE IT FOR THAT PURPOSE, SO IT WAS USEFUL.

LHL: WHEN YOU WRITE SOMETHING, IT HELPS CLARIFY WHAT YOU’RE THINKING ABOUT, SOMETIMES EVEN THINGS YOU DIDN’T REALIZE YOU WERE THINKING ABOUT. IT’S THE SAME AS WHEN YOU TALK INTO A CAMERA; ALL OF A SUDDEN, YOU START TALKING ABOUT THINGS YOU DIDN’T EXPECT. IT’S A WAY OF GETTING CLEAR ABOUT WHAT’S INSIDE YOUR BRAIN. LATER, I WAS TRYING TO TEACH MYSELF HOW TO USE A CAMERA, AND AT THE TIME, AROUND THE EARLY 1980S, I COULDN’T GET ANY FORMAL INSTRUCTION. I WAS TEACHING, SO I WOULD BORROW A CAMERA AND A MICROPHONE, BUT NOBODY WOULD ACTUALLY TEACH ME HOW TO USE THEM. IT WAS ALL TRIAL AND ERROR. I COULDN’T AFFORD TO HIRE AN ACTOR, SO I JUST SAT IN FRONT OF THE CAMERA AND STARTED TALKING. THAT’S HOW THE ELECTRONIC DIARIES BEGAN – RECORDING MYSELF SAYING THINGS I DIDN’T EVEN REALIZE I WAS THINKING ABOUT. THEN OTHER PEOPLE STARTED TO RELATE TO THOSE VIDEOS. I KEPT GOING WITH IT BECAUSE IT WAS EASY TO DO; ONCE I LEARNED HOW TO OPERATE THE EQUIPMENT, I DIDN’T NEED ANYONE ELSE.

LHL: WELL, I WANTED TO TRY WORKING WITH CHATGPT BECAUSE WRITING A SCRIPT IS A LOT OF WORK. I THOUGHT THAT IF I HAD CHATGPT WRITE IT, I COULD SEE WHAT IT
CAME UP WITH. BUT IT WAS REALLY DISAPPOINTING BECAUSE IT HAS NO SENSE OF HUMOR AND NO REAL RESONANCE OR DEPTH. I HAD TO BE VERY CREATIVE IN THE QUESTIONS I ASKED IN ORDER TO SHAPE A SCRIPT THAT MIGHT BE WORTH PRODUCING. IT WAS AN IN- TERESTING EXERCISE, BUT ALSO
DISAPPOINTING BECAUSE I THINK I WAS PROJECTING HUMAN POSSIBILITIES ONTO A PRO- GRAM THAT SIMPLY DOES NOT HAVE THEM. WHAT IT WROTE WAS VERY STRAIGHTFORWARD
AND, FRANKLY, BORING.

LHL: NO, I PUT THAT ASIDE. I DIDN’T FIND IT INTERESTING ENOUGH TO WORK WITH, MAYBE BECAUSE I TRIED IT SO EARLY WHEN IT WAS JUST STARTING. IT DIDN’T HOLD MY INTEREST BECAUSE THE RESPONSES WERE TOO BORING, AND I HAD TO SPEND TOO MUCH TIME PRE-CONFIGURING MY QUESTIONS JUST TO GET SOMETHING INTERESTING. IT WAS NOT A DIALOGUE AT ALL. MAYBE IF I TRIED IT NOW, IT WOULD BE
SMARTER OR OFFER MORE DEPTH. BUT AT THE TIME, IT DID NOT DO ANYTHING FOR ME. IT WAS VERY STRAIGHTFORWARD AND NOT SOMETHING YOU WANTED TO KEEP TALKING TO FOR LONG.

LHL: WELL, IF I WANTED TO LEARN ABOUT SOMETHING, I HAD TO DO IT MYSELF. THERE WAS NOBODY TO HELP IN SCHOOL – IN FACT, THEY OFTEN MADE FUN OF ME WHEN I WANTED TO DO SOMETHING OTHER THAN TRADITIONAL WATERCOLOR. THEY WOULDN’T ACCEPT MY WORK, AND I WASN’T EVEN ALLOWED TO SUBMIT IT FOR REVIEW. THE ADMINISTRATION INSISTED I CHANGE MY MAJOR, SO I SWITCHED TO BIOLOGY.

LHL: THERE ARE NEW POSSIBILITIES, BUT IT’S NOT AS REVOLUTIONARY AS DIGITAL ART. WITH DIGITAL ART, YOU COULD DO THINGS THAT WERE COMPLETELY NEW, ESPECIALLY
FOR PEOPLE WHO HADN’T HAD ACCESS TO THAT BEFORE. IT OPENED UP A BROADER AUDIENCE AND THE ABILITY TO COMMUNICATE INSTANTLY AROUND THE WORLD. AI IS BASICALLY A SOPHISTICATED SEARCH ENGINE. I THINK PEOPLE ARE BECOMING MORE DEMANDING ABOUT WHAT TECHNOLOGY SHOULD BE ABLE TO DO. WE’VE HAD MAJOR BREAKTHROUGHS IN THE LAST 10 YEARS, BUT RIGHT NOW, I DON’T SEE ANY REAL BREAK- THROUGHS – EXCEPT MAY- BE THE POSSIBILITY OF LEAVING THE PLANET. STILL, PEOPLE EXPECT AND WANT MORE. I HAD AN ADVANTAGE LIVING IN THE BAY AREA BE- CAUSE YOU GET TO HEAR ABOUT THINGS BE- FORE THEY BECOME PUB- LIC OR TAKEN OVER BY TECHNOLOGY. UNDERSTANDING WHAT SILICON VALLEY IS DOING, THE PROGRAMS THEY’RE WORKING ON, AND THE PROGRAMMERS THEY BRING HERE HAS BEEN REALLY HELPFUL IN MY CAREER. I DOUBT I WOULD BE DOING THE KIND OF WORK I DO IF I LIVED IN NEW YORK. LIVING NEAR SILICON VALLEY MADE IT POSSIBLE.

LHL: I SPENT A LOT OF MY TIME GROWING UP AT THE CLEVELAND MUSEUM, ALWAYS WANTING TO BE THERE, LOOKING AT REMBRANDTS, CÉZANNE, AND ALL THE DRAWINGS. BUT IT WAS SOMETHING FROM THE PAST. I USED TO COPY THEM, TRYING TO UNDERSTAND WHAT THE ARTISTS WERE THINKING WHEN THEY MADE THEIR WORK AND WHAT THEIR LIVES WERE LIKE. BUT IT DIDN’T DEAL WITH THE PRESENT OR THE POSSIBILITIES THAT EXIST SINCE THEN. THE BEST ARTISTS INVENT THINGS THAT HAVEN’T BEEN DONE BEFORE, THINGS THAT REFLECT THEIR PARTICULAR TIME. SO FOR ME, GOING BACK AND DOING THOSE KINDS OF THINGS WOULD BE MORE HISTORICAL WORK RATHER THAN EXPLORING NEW POSSIBILITIES WITH CURRENT INVENTIONS.

LHL: I DIDN’T DO THINGS TO BE THE FIRST; I DID THEM BECAUSE THEY WERE INTERESTING OR DIDN’T EXIST YET. I HAD TO CREATE TECHNOLOGIES AND MEET PROGRAMMERS
TO DEVELOP TOOLS THAT WOULD ALLOW ME TO MAKE WHAT I WANTED. IT WASN’T ABOUT BEING FIRST; IT WAS ABOUT MAKING SOMETHING I WANTED TO CREATE. FORTUNATELY, LIVING IN THE BAY AREA MEANT PROGRAMMERS WERE ACCESSIBLE AND AFFORDABLE. THEY LIKED DOING THIS KIND OF WORK AND ENJOYED GOING TO EXHIBITIONS WHERE THEY HELPED CREATE SOMETHING. I STILL WORK WITH SOME
OF THOSE PROGRAMMERS AFTER ALMOST TWO DECADES. SOMETIMES, NOT HAVING RESOURCES FORCES YOU TO INVENT BETTER WAYS OF DOING THINGS. WE MADE THE FILM TEKNOLUST IN JUST FOUR DAYS USING VIRTUAL SETS I INVENTED SO I DIDN’T HAVE TO BUILD PHYSICAL ONES. TEKNOLUST WAS PRODUCED ON A MODEST BUDGET BUT IS KNOWN FOR ITS INNOVATIVE USE OF TECHNOLOGY AND STORYTELLING. EVEN WITH THE FINANCIAL CHALLENGES, IT BECAME AN IMPORTANT WORK IN MY CAREER AND HAS BEEN SHOWCASED IN RETROSPECTIVES AND EXHIBITIONS. IT WAS A DIFFICULT PROCESS BECAUSE I LOST THE BUDGET FOR TEKNOLUST SHORTLY BEFORE FILMING STARTED. THE PRODUCER AND ATTORNEY ANNOUNCED THE NIGHT BEFORE
TILDA SWINTON WAS CAST ON A “PAY OR PLAY” CONTRACT THAT THERE WERE NO FUNDS AVAILABLE. DESPITE THIS SETBACK AND NEARLY FACING BANKRUPTCY, I PUSHED THROUGH AND COMPLETED THE FILM.

LHL: I DIDN’T ORIGINALLY KNOW IT WAS GOING TO BE A FILM. I JUST NOTICED THERE WERE WOMEN DOING AMAZING THINGS IN ART. WHENEVER A WOMAN ARTIST CAME TO SAN FRANCISCO, I’D GET A CAMERA AND INTERVIEW THEM IN MY LIVING ROOM, NOT KNOWING WHAT WOULD COME OF IT. IT WAS A WAY TO MEET THEM AND SEE WHAT THEY WERE DOING FOR MYSELF. EVENTUALLY, I HAD SO MANY VIDEOTAPES OF
THESE INCREDIBLE WOMEN THAT HARDLY ANYONE HAD HEARD OF, AND SINCE I WAS TEACHING, I THOUGHT I NEEDED TO PUT IT ALL TOGETHER SO PEOPLE COULD SEE WHO THE WOMEN REALLY MAKING BREAKTHROUGHS WERE. THAT’S HOW IT HAPPENED. I DID SEVERAL INTERVIEWS OVER TIME – SOMETIMES I’D INTERVIEW SOMEONE, THEN TWO YEARS LATER THEY’D COME BACK FOR ANOTHER, AND IF I WENT TO NEW YORK, I’D DO LONGER INTERVIEWS WITH THE MOST INTERESTING ARTISTS. THE WOMEN WHO WERE INVENTING THE WORK MADE A REAL DIFFERENCE, BUT ALSO HOW THEY
COMMUNICATED MATTERED. SOME GREAT ARTISTS CAN’T TALK ABOUT THEIR WORK WELL, SO THEY’RE HARD TO USE IN A FILM. OTHERS ARE ANIMATED, ARTICULATE, AND MAKE GREAT SUBJECTS. I USUALLY PREPARED QUESTIONS IN ADVANCE, BUT I RARELY USED THEM – IT WAS MORE OF A CONVERSATION BECAUSE I NEVER KNEW WHAT WAS GOING TO HAPPEN. I WASN’T EVEN INTENDING TO MAKE A FILM.

LHL: THE PROJECT WAS REALLY HARD. I AM GLAD I DID IT BUT WON’T DO IT AGAIN. MANY OF THE WOMEN WERE DIFFICULT TO WORK WITH AND HAD NEVER BEEN IN SITUATIONS LIKE THAT BEFORE. SOME WANTED TO RE-EDIT THE FILM TO MAKE THEMSELVES LOOK MORE IMPORTANT, AND EVENTUALLY, I DECIDED THAT WAS THE END OF IT.

LHL: IT’S QUITE A BIT MORE ANXIETY-PROVOKING THAN ANYTHING ELSE I’VE DONE. MY DAUGHTER WILL READ IT. I HAVE TO PREPARE HER FOR KNOWING THE PERSONAL HISTORY. YOU NEVER KNOW HOW PEOPLE WILL REACT. THEY MIGHT HATE IT OR MOST PROBABLY CRITICIZE IT, BUT IT WAS SOMETHING I HAD TO DO.